A powerful and vital interview. ― Molly
 |
| President Donald Trump talks with journalists after signing tax reform legislation into law in the Oval Office December 22, 2017, in Washington, DC. |
By Laura
Flanders,
Truthout | Interview
After the spate of disastrous floods, fires and
quakes that have shocked us this year, this is a good time to revisit Naomi
Klein, whose work continues to dig deep into the way that the global
capitalists use shock and chaos to advance their agenda, regardless of the
impact on the vulnerable. It's hard to think of a national or global emergency
that Donald Trump hasn't tried to exploit for his own purposes, but still, a
year after his election, roughly 30 percent of Americans polled continue to
support his presidency. What is Trump selling? Who's buying? And why? And what
do those who consider themselves part of the resistance need to say
"yes" to, after so many months and years of saying "no" to
Trump and Trumpism? Naomi Klein is the author of 2017's No Is Not Enough, as well as The
Shock Doctrine, No Logo and This Changes
Everything. You can watch this conversation --
and many more like this -- on the Laura Flanders Show,
or subscribe to the free podcast: @lfshow
Laura Flanders: I'm waiting for the book
that has "YES" as big on the cover.
Naomi Klein: Yeah, yeah. No, it's
true. I don't like that when you look at it from far all you see is
"No," because that's the opposite message of the book.
There's a really important insight in this
book, which has to do with the story we tell about capitalism. It's changed. No
longer the lifting of all boats. Can you just stop there and talk about the
implications?
Well, I mean, we are in this moment where the ascendant moment
for the so-called free-market project is in profound crisis, and in truth, it's
been in crisis for a long time. It's been a kind of slow crisis with various
stages, right? It was in crisis really, since it no longer became possible to
negotiate a free-trade agreement with the consent of all the countries
involved.
Lots of people would say it is crisis.
... that it is crisis, absolutely. I think there was a period
from the '80s and '90s, let's just say, the Reagan/Thatcher moment through the
Clinton era, maybe up until ... Seattle [in] 1999, where there was still ...
the promise and the propaganda of just, "We just need more capitalism and
that's what's going to fix it. We need to deregulate markets further, we need to
privatize everything. We need to lock it all in with these corporate free trade
deals ..."
... and that in so doing, we'd raise all
boats.
Yeah, that it was going to spread around the world, prosperity
for everyone. That phase of bringing in every corner of the globe into this
singular project, that is what's been in crisis, and it's been in crisis
because, for a long time, it was largely at the level of promise. Like,
"If we do this, then this will happen...." But now, we're in a moment
where there's a mountain of data, thanks to theorists like Thomas Piketty who
have shown us so dramatically how inequality has widened everywhere -- that
these policies have been adopted, and lived experience, right?
So, that crisis, I think, has been building now for a couple of
decades, but the 2008 financial crisis, watching the powerful break all of
their lives in broad daylight, right? Intervening so dramatically in the
market, doing all the things that they said couldn't be done, everyone saw
that, and once you see it, you can't unsee it. You understand that the rules
can be broken.
The other aspect of this is that the story
about lifting all boats is up against a scenario, a reality where I think the
last story I heard today was five people -- five men -- have between them the
wealth equivalent to half the rest of the population, the rest of the world's
assets? Something like $400 billion.
Yep, 50 percent, yeah.
So, what you say in the book is that we
replace that story of "capitalism will help everybody" with the story
of "it's winners and losers and you don't want to be a loser."
Right, right, and that is key to understanding Trump, because
what he has been selling in this period as the wealth gap has widened, this
period of a small group of super winners, and a whole lot of people who are
just losing, is: "I will teach you how to be a winner." I think it's
really important to understand that that is what he has been promising since he
wrote The Art of the Deal. Like, "I'm going to teach you
how to be like me, never mind that wealth is inherited, never mind that
everything was handed to me...." And this is what he was selling at Trump
University. "I'm going to turn you into the next Donald Trump."
University, right. That's what "The Apprentice" was, right?
Yeah.
This ticket up to the "promised land," up the elevator
to Trump Tower, and it was precisely because ... the alternative to that was
getting worse and worse, that that was such a helpful sales pitch for him.
You make the point that he's not the
explanation for us being in this situation, but he is an expression of it ...
we all live in this ranking, rating world with enormous implications. I think,
among other things, for organizing. How do you see it playing out?
Well, you know, I end the book with this section that I worried
would be a little bit controversial, about how we need to kill our "inner
Trump;" and I want to be clear, I'm not saying, "Kill Trump."
Our "Inner Trump." The parts of ourselves that are a little bit
Trumpish. I'm not saying that we are all the same as Trump, I'm not saying we
are all equally responsible ... but I am saying that he is a product of our
culture. That he could become president is a product of our culture, and we're
all in the culture.
Please continue this interview here: http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/43002-trump-embodies-the-crisis-of-capitalism-a-conversation-with-naomi-klein
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